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Open Questions
By Jeremy | November 28, 2007
Topics: community, compassion, justice | 15 Comments »
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(Two chapters)
(Commentary throughout)
(Study questions throughout)
« Wednesday Weekly Webcast | Home | Somebody Still Cares, New Orleans »
By Jeremy | November 28, 2007
Topics: community, compassion, justice | 15 Comments »
November 28th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
I say that these are the right questions to be asking – and that we tend to contextualize the gospel based on our political paradigm. To flip the script, as they say – should we view the wave of Arab immigration as a opportunity to share the love of Christ? Or, rather is it a invasion by pagan hordes?
Saying that, where does the bible stand on “illegal’ Mexican immigration? Isiaac Canlaes has some great thoughts about that that I posted on my blog a while ago…
November 29th, 2007 at 1:02 pm
I have some comments but will wait until I get home, anything construed controversial would not be looked upon kindly.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:48 pm
Phil, looking forward to your thoughts.
November 29th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Jon, I saw the link to the Sojourners piece (great article, by the way!), but I don’t remember the Isaac Canales comments. How long ago did you post them? They’re vaguely familiar.
November 29th, 2007 at 4:55 pm
Sojourners had a good article? I am sorry the guy who is the editor for that magazine, wrote a book that was supposed to admonish both republicans and democrats about religion and God, was a big fake.
He rebuked Democrats maybe 10% of the book and only to a 3 on a scale of 1 to 10. Republicans were raked over the coals on a 20 on a scale of 1 to 10.
The only reason I read it was because a parent of one of the youth in my church is a democrat and he recommended it.
If the author was in front of me as I was reading it I would’ve ripped the book up and called him a bold face hypocrite.
November 30th, 2007 at 2:24 am
Hi Jeremy, SOund slike you are watching the O’Reilly Factor a lot!
Well first of all let me say this, I would not want to live in a neighborhood where it is an Islamic. There are parts of queens where they have a few blocks and let me tell you when you see those women walking around covered from head to toe in black or red it is SCARY! All you see are slits, I am sorry but it is unerving and frightening! But the husbands are walking around with a baseball cap and tee shirt and jeans on a sweltering summer day. This is insane!
In parts of Belgium and Netherlands and Sweden neighborhoods which are majority Muslim, the native women there are so frightened of the men there that they are now wearing head scarves because the men there threaten them.
Perhaps in America the muslims are not like that, but I don’t wanna libe in a country that is like that.
Where women are treated as nothing but baby machines, where they are covered from head to toe for their protection. Well I guess they are saying because of they were not covered they would be raped. What does this say about their men then?
In Pakistan a few years ago a man was on a date with a girl, when they were found out the village council decided on how to punish the guy. SO to punish him and his family they voted to gang rape the guys sister and one of the council members was the father of the girl who went on the date. I guess this is what they mean by protecting the women.
I’m sorry but when a religion is founded by a pedophile (he married a 6 year old girl), what good can come from it?
I know we are supposed to love our neighbors, and muslims I meet on an individual level, I do like and sense good in them, but as a whole there is much to dislike and fear. There are not enough muslims out there speaking out against the terrorism.
Did you hear about the britsih school teacher in Sudan who allowed her muslims students to pick a name for a teddy bear and the kids named it Muhhamed. She was put on trial and faced 1 year in jail and 40 lashes. She recieved 15 days in jail for inciting religious hatred and blashemy. The top clerics in Sudan demanded the harshest of penalties.
The only thing we can do is PRAY hard and long that God will change their hearts and get rid of this religion. I agree with Franklin Graham and what he said about Islam. No need to repeat it here but Jeremy you know what he said. Sorry for rambling and being so blunt and maybe one would say bigoted (a liberal would probably cal me racist, though it wouldnt be, because it is a religion not race)
Sorry Jeremy in the future i will try and stick to the topic and not give such a long rant. Hopefully I will be more constructive and try and be more loving but it is how I feel!
November 30th, 2007 at 11:04 am
P, thanks for being so honest. Your concerns are precisely the kinds of feelings I’ve heard many other Christians express, and raise for me a couple of other questions.
How much of your concerns would you say is rooted in fear? From the opening paragraph, which describes Islamic culture as “scary,” it sounds like quite a bit.
Even if fear is not the major factor and only a minor consideration, what of the Biblical idea that, “Perfect love casts out fear”? Isn’t perfect love (or at least the pursuit of perfect love) what God requires of us in Luke 10?
Even if you and others pray that God “gets rid of this religion,” what happens in the time between now and whenever the answer to that prayer may come? How should we treat the billion or so professing Muslims between now and then? And what if those prayers remain unanswered, as they have been for over a millennium? Should we hold Muslims accountable for God’s refusal to do as we have asked?
Thanks for engaging this conversation!
November 30th, 2007 at 11:05 am
Phil, I understand if you disagree with Jim Wallis’ politics, but his book God’s Politics addresses the misuse of religion in America’s political system by both Republicans and Democrats. It stands to reason that he would have more to say about Republicans in 2005 (or whenever the book was published) because the Republicans held power over the presidency and both houses of congress at the time of his writing. And they gained power in large part (if not primarily) because of how well they mobilized Christian voters whereas the Democrats had neglected (if not scorned) that constituency for so long.
November 30th, 2007 at 11:12 am
The problem with Jim Wallis’ book is that the very thing he accused the Republicans of in various parts of the book for demonizing or demagogory, he was guilty of himself for the way he went after the republicans and conservatives.
The pot calling the kettle black. I just didn’t think he was being intellectaully honest promising for a fair and equal critique of both parties.
Fair and balanced he was not.
Also an update on the teacher convicted of blashemy. After friday prayers, thousands of muslims carrying axes, knives and clubs demanded the execution of the teacher. I shudder to think.
Jeremy you are correct, what do we do in the meantime. It is a tough question. I know many muslims and work with a few, good people, pious and peaceful, but unfortunately that’s not the problem.
A better question to ask is it that extremists have co-opted the religion or is this what the religion was actually intended to be?
I guess a better prayer would be to change their hearts and lift the scales from their eyes and let the truth be revealed to them. But to change our hearts and soften them to love at the same time but without being weak.
November 30th, 2007 at 11:26 am
P, So how does the truth get revealed to them? Could it be that modeling perfect love despite fear is the best way to reveal truth? Jesus tells the Luke 10 Samaritan story in response to a lawyer’s question, “Who is my neighbor?” The Samaritan’s love, as expressed towards a Jew, was held out as being the standard of how God expects us to love our neighbor (in order to experience eternal life). Yet, in the story, the Jew was not the neighbor, even though he was the one in need and the recipient of love. The Samaritan was. For the Jewish lawyer who asked the question, that was mind blowing because Jews feared Samaritans. It’s especially significant that the Luke 10 neighbor is a Samaritan after how the previous chapter ended. Jesus and his disciples had passed through a Samaritan Village that was unwelcoming to him and his message. His disciples got angry, so angry in fact that James and John prayed that God would get rid of the village by sending fire from heaven. Jesus lovingly rebuked them and then reiterates how following him requires his disciple to count the cost. Is it possible that God wants to answer our prayer to reveal truth in such a way that we become answers to those very prayers? In other words, might we be the instruments he uses to reveal his love, and if so how?
November 30th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Yes but in that instance the samaritan was not trying to behead the jewish person.
There are two fronts in the way to convert, prayer and relationship building, but another front is to destroy the armies. God used the Israelites to wipe out the enemy as well and other times to show compassion.
Mind you I didn’t go to seminary so unlike you JDR, I ca’t pull chapter and verse
Though look in the old testament. During the kingless times God sent warriors to take out the enemy. Man oh man was was the name of the guy who was left handed and mishappen who was cloak and dagger and murdered the king. Help a brutha out Jeremy.
December 3rd, 2007 at 10:48 am
P, I can honestly say that I have never met a Muslim neighbor in Bay Ridge who was trying to behead me or any other person in the community. That some fundamentalist Muslims in the world would be delighted by my beheading is no different than the fact that some blond headed, blue eyed neo-Nazi skinheads would be similarly delighted by reprising the holocaust. Their hatred shouldn’t prevent a Jew and I from becoming friends just because that skinhead professes to believe the same Bible as me.
In Ecclesiastes and elsewhere that Bible makes it clear that “there is a time for war.” I don’t mean this blogpost to be an anti-war pacifist rant. But notwithstanding the War on Terror, the Iraq War and any other military actions presently engaged overseas, my concern is how I and other Christians in America should “love our neighbors,” including Arab muslims living and working among us.
December 3rd, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Jeremy, nor have I met any violent muslims either. America some how has a mellowing effect on people. They actually see people of all different colors and backgrounds getting along. They actually don’t live under some dictatorship as they had in the past. They taste freedom and see genders being treated equally and with respect. They see different religions being allowed. They see women driving, women walking alone without a male relative, they see real life and not the distorted world they used to live and exist in.
You have relationships and love your neighbor including people of all religious backgrounds, but at the same time you should crush (through fore) the ones that would try and disrupt those relationships in the meantime.
When I was discussing the crushing or taking out of enemies, I meant the ones that are terrorists. Not the ones in bayridge.
I will reiterate what was said earlier. Seeing shapeless blobs (in my neighborhood) with only eyes staring out at you is disconcerting and frightening and sad all in one. Because they are being oppresed.
December 3rd, 2007 at 4:07 pm
To paraphrase someone (MLK, I think): oppression anywhere is oppression everywhere. I’m with you that oppression in all its forms (political, economic, criminal, theocratic, religious, cultural, whatever) is a problem and should be confronted. I guess I’m still wondering the best way to confront it, and how the confrontation changes in different contexts. Does supporting the Iraq War, for example, constitute Western oppression of an oil-rich Arab state? Or does it support the liberation of an oppressed people from an egomaniacal tyrant, and the removal of a safe haven for fundamentalist terrorists? And whichever way it’s viewed, does the geopolitical conflict have any bearing on how I’m supposed to engage the “shapeless blob” you described? I’ll grant you that her condition strikes Western sensibilities as disconcerting and frightening and sad. How can perfect love dispel our fear? How can Christ’s joy, which Galatians claims to be our strength, overcome the sadness? How can His embrace bring her in concert with the rest of the community, even if she chooses never to change her fashion sense?
December 3rd, 2007 at 4:19 pm
The local mosque during ramadan had a sign inviting their neighbors to join in a dinner celebrating the breaking of fast. I actually thought about doing it, but did not out of fear. I would love to engage them in conversqation and dialogue, cause it actually looks like nice people. In one yr the ramadan services have exploded. Last year the people worshipping was self contained. This year they actually closed off the block and had people spilling in the streets and praying. The women of course were segregated elsewhere.
One is always afraid of change or people different from them, I will grant you that, but there are enough troubling veiws and messages from the mainstream of their leadership.
It will take a concerted effort of our people to pray and engage. Other than that there isn’t much you can do. There is much fear in their hearts to for conversion in their faith is apostasy which means either shunning or honor killing. The odds are against it, but we should rememebr that nothing is bigger than our Father.
Supporting the Iraq war in no way supports the oppression of the state. The US has not taken the oil away like the europeans,left, libs, dems have claimed. It has in fact freed them to choose their own path as in Afghanistan. We have in fact caused there to be less oppression.