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Live blogging Rick Warren conversation
By Jeremy | May 2, 2007
General Remarks
• In town for Tribeca Film Festival. Film on Rawanda. • Difference between growing and swelling. Growing churches not about transfer growth • Saddleback’s 27th anniversary this Easter: over 39,000 people attended. Preached 12 sermons Easter Sunday. • You attract what you are, not what you want. God wants you to be you, no one else. Don’t start out as an original and end up a carbon copy. Learn from everybody, but don’t copy. • You can learn something from everybody if you know how to ask the right questions. • Growing churches require growing pastors. Stay a learner. • Canceled Purpose Driven conference this year so the focus would change this year from conferences to conversations. • Vision is not knowing the future. It’s seeing opportunity in the current environment and taking advantage of it. Flexibility, balance. Surfing spiritual waves. Holy Spirit sends waves: can you ride the wave without falling off? • Thou shall not dis’ another man’s ministry. “Who are you to judge another man’s servant?†Takes all kinds of ministries to reach all kinds of people. • 30,000 churches have done “40 Days of Purpose.†When PDL came out, set up a separate org to serve those churches. Created a redundant para-church organization; closed down the org this year. (PDL: best selling hardback in history. 57 languages. Sold 30M copies in English.)The Antidote to Sin
• Paradigm for building Saddleback Church is Great Commandment and Great Commission. BUT the foundation of your ministry is who God has made you. • Requires integrity, humility, and generosity: the antidote to sin. Three essentials for God’s blessing on your life. • Lust of the flesh: the temptation to feel good; appetite for pleasure. “I deserve betterâ€Â: expectation. Hedonism. Passion. • The lust of the eyes: the temptation to have. I see it and I want it. Greed. Essentially materialism. Possession. • The pride of life: the temptation to be. I want to be liked, loved, respected, envied, worshipped. Position. • Build intentional barriers against these three areas. • Antidote for lust of flesh: Integrity. More than honest. Comes from “integral†or “integer.†Integrated means everything becomes one. Doesn’t mean perfect. But it means consistency whether in public or in private. Doesn’t compartmentalize life. Not a phony. • The Titanic myth: Titanic was supposed to be unsinkable because it compartmentalized the hull. Theoretically, could take on water in a number of compartments and not sink. But a hole is a hole is a hole. Take on water in any compartment and be set-up for a fall or ineffectiveness. • Antidote to lust of eyes: Generosity. All about attitude. Not about amount. PDL money scared him to death, so in 2002 he and his wife made 5 decisions: 1) Don’t change lifestyle at all. 2) Stopped taking salary from church. 3) Gave the church everything back that it ever paid in salary. 4) Set up three foundations. Acts of Mercy (funds AIDS ministry because AIDS is leprosy of 21st century); Equipping Leaders; Global PEACE Fund. 5) Became reverse tithers: give 90% and live off 10%. Why? Every time we give it breaks the back of materialism over our lives. God made PDL a success because God knew what Rick would do with the money. • Antidote to pride of life: Humility. It doesn’t mean false humility: “I’m no good†etc. It’s not denying your strengths, but being honest about your weakness. Paul said, “Follow me as I follow Christ,†because he also knew he was “chief among sinners.†Be honest with yourself. Humility and humor come from the same root. Learn to laugh at yourself. You’ll never run out of good material. Best way to win over a hostile crowd: tell a joke about yourself. The more you reveal your weakness, the more people love you. We hold treasure in jars of clay. We’re all a little cracked.Q&A
Q: What is the PEACE Plan? • PEACE Plan. If you do what Jesus did, you’ll be blessed: Plant churches. Empower leaders. Care for the sick. Educate next generation. Most of the entrepreneurs had to move outside the church to meet those needs. Problem: para-church ministries leave the vast majority of believers uninvolved. Feet and hands have been amputated from the body of Christ, leaving only the mouth. So rep of church has been talk (esp. what it’s against, not what it’s for). Church has become: come. Listen. Sit. Soak. And sour. • Definition of PEACE Plan. Ordinary people empowered by God making a difference together wherever they are. Need a second reformation in the church. The first reformation was about what the church believes. The second will be about what the church does. • Ordinary People. Revivals always start with peasants. Never the elite. • Empowered by God. Can’t take on 5 global giants (spiritual emptiness, illiteracy, corrupt leaders, epidemics, and extreme poverty) apart from God’s power. Small group based. In the church, for the church, by the church for the community. The local church is “the most important thing on the universe.†Christ died for the church – not for human organizations or denominations, etc. God created everything because he wanted to love you. He wanted family. The family of God will last forever. • Making a difference together. One drop of rain is meaningless. But a flood can turn a dessert into a garden. 2.3 billion people claim to follow Christ. 1 out of 3 people on the globe. The church is the largest network in the world. Nothing comes close. The church was global 200 yrs before globalization. More languages and countries than the UN. • The Church’s problem. Mobilizing people outside the 4 walls. Second reformation is not about creeds. Deeds. • Change the culture by art, music, and sports. NOT Politics. Politics is always downstream from Culture. Satan’s strategy is always to get us to laugh at sin. First step in mainstreaming homosexuality: sit-com Soap. Learn how to demonstrate sin as stupid in a humorous way • PEACE is a decentralized strategy. Historically, the method was: pray, pay and stay out of the way. Now, mobilize people for mission. Go. Don’t even pray about it. When they grow, God grabs their heart. Then they study, pray, and give. Acts 1:8. Have a missions experience in Jerusalem first. Then Judea. Then Samaria. Then uttermost parts of the world. Samaria: people who are culturally different but live in the same region. • Biggest hinderance to PEACE. “It’s not about you.†• Holistic. Ministry must be holistic. Body and soul. Salvation Army model. William Booth’s 1-word keynote to SA: “Others.†Q: How did you get involved with AIDS? Opportunity for the Church's finest hour. [Distracted from note-taking] Q: Comment on needs of urban areas. This week's podcast is about urban ministry (available tomorrow). Urban ministry is not homogenous. Cities are mosaics of tribes. Different hooks must be used for different fish. No one size fits all. Must love the city in order to reach the city. Can fake love for two years, but then people will know. See it as Jesus sees it. He sees the tribes and cares for them all. Paul took the Gospel to the crossroads cities of his day. NYC is “the most strategic place to be.†Good and bad all begins in urban cities. Not red/blue states. Red/blue counties. Blue counties are predominantly urban. Manhattan -- 94% voted for Kerry. Q: How can we transition churches to reformation? Requires TIME. First, transition from personality dirven to purpose driven. That's a catalyst. Otherwise, understand that Reformation takes 50-60 years. RW is "not the reformation generation." He has 25 yrs of ministry left to invest in the reformation generation. Church is too big to see it happen overnight. Q: How can church reengage culture, not just political activism. Historically, nothing has inspired art more than scripture. How do we reclaim it? Education. Requires a generation, at least. Evangelicals made a mistake in 80s by focusing on politics and abandoning arts. There are more Christians in Congress and White House than ever before. But no change. Can't change the hearts of people through legislation. But art moves the heart. 12 streams of cultural influence. Politicians at the bottom of the list. Q: I love my denomination, but I have more in common with this group than my denominational pastors. What happens when we leave here? Stay connected. RW moving from content creation to connections. This week article in Forbes magazine, RW writes about the greatest network in the world. Utilize technology. Share resources, ideas, etc. Open source ideas. Saddleback is developing PEACE freeware as well as "Purpose Driven Suite" freeware for managing churches. Scalable size. Q: Can purpose-driven be contextualized for urban/post-modern generations? Yes. Generalizations are generally wrong. Pastors must be translators. Lots of different tribes, and we must translate the message for each one. Must get creative. No formulas. Let the people your serving set the agenda. Q: Current church planting trends: What one thing concerns and excites you? Exciting: many new models. Networks of networks. Learning and sharing ideas and resources. Growing faster than in the past. Concern: some churches would rather be creative and cute than effective; they prefer cool to effectiveness. Problem: most of the world is not "cool" and those churches become boutiques. (Eg, Wal-Mart is not cool.) Where's the breakthrough churches reaching large numbers of Generation Y? Learn from and teach the previous/next generation. Greatest triple play in history: Aristotle taught Plato who taught Socrates. Q: What discourages RW? The personal sins I still deal with after 30 years of ministry. The Saddleback 10 Commandments have shielded RW from sexual sin. But he's enforced them. In 27 years has never been alone with a women other than his wife. Money is not an issue because he gives it all away. But the issue of pride is an ongoing struggle. Humilty is, in its essence, total dependence on God. Yet it's still easy for RW to do things apart from God. And that disappoints him. RW quotes an old Jerry Falwell sermon: "You determines a man's greatness by what discourages him." Spent entire 2nd year of ministry ready to give up. Depressed. Prayer was simply to make it through Sunday. So glad he didn't give up and, more importantly, that God didn't give up on him.Related
Rick Warren's Ministry Tool-Box profiles Generation Xcel.movies fucking mmfmommy moviesmovie hentaimovie poster designtheater germs movie seatsmovies free adultmovies dvd adultmovie nude stills Mapmortgage servicing amc loan203k loans nhalathea sloan21 day loaninterest mortgage loan adviceloans 1 stop carloans car affordablecompany affordable loan MapTopics: leadership | 30 Comments »
May 2nd, 2007 at 9:45 pm
wow.. thanks for sharing those!
May 3rd, 2007 at 7:57 am
This was a very comprehensive summary Mr. Del Rio. Gracias for posting!
May 3rd, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Rick Warren is a False Shepard. A wolf in sheeps clothing. Beware. Read your bibles. You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free. The only way to know truth is to read your bible daily and pray for wisdom and insight constantly. You will not know who is a true shepard and who is a wolf without reading your bible. Read your bibles for your own souls sake. Even someone with the best of intentions can have it wrong. Are you betting your souls eternal destiny on what someone else is telling you the bible says? Danger. They may be mistaken, interpreting the scriptures incorrectly or worse, decieving you on PURPOSE. Read for yourselves and beware the time we live in.
May 4th, 2007 at 10:55 am
Friend – How does the tone and anger of your comments align with how Jesus taught us to demonstrate friendliness? “Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends” (John 15:13)
May 4th, 2007 at 3:56 pm
genxcel-My tone is not one of anger but of truth. Truth is never a bad thing. Was Jesus demonstating friendliness when He took a whip into the temple and turned over all of the money changers tables and ran them out of His fathers house? No, he was demonstrating righteous anger against those who would make His fathers house a den of theives. Rick Warren is such a money changer and just like the Pharisees of Jesus day he plays the part of the righteous but inside he is like a whitewashed tomb. I do not see Jesus getting glory, I see Rick Warren getting glory. I do not see money, time or talent given in secret with his left hand not telling his right hand what he is giving. I see a man telling everyone he can that he is reverse tithing and giving away 90 percent of his income and living on 10 percent. I see a man who gives that 90 percent back into his own charities that he controls. I see danger. This warning for the Lords chosen to read their bibles and pray for wisdom and insight is very loving. You may want to ask yourself why you believe an encouragement to read your bible and pray is angry or unfriendly. I would hope that my brothers in Jesus Christ always point me to the one who deserves all of my praise and honor, Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And God forbid that I should give any of that to a mere man. May I always see that shepards who have shared a good word are only mere instruments and vessels used by our God and King, Jesus Christ.
May 4th, 2007 at 5:27 pm
Friend,
If you mean to post in truth, why post anonymously?
Thank you for your encouragement to read the Bible and pray. I trust in that regard we have found a basis for agreement.
With respect to the rest of your comments, what specifically qualifies RW as a “money changer” who “plays the part of the righteous” but is really “a whitewashed tomb”? Is it his challenge to sinners to receive God’s grace? Is it his challenge to the Church to disciple nations? Is it his call for individuals to love God with all their heart, mind, soul, and strength, and similarly to love their neighbors as themselves? Is it his belief that compassion compels us to meet the needs of the poor and sick among us? Or is it the fact that his book sold so many copies and inspired millions to discover God’s unique purpose for their lives?
Thanks for commenting. You are welcome here anytime.
May 5th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Jeremy,
I am glad to here we agree on praying and reading Gods’ Holy word.
It sounds like you have already made up you mind about the man, yet we are told to test every spirit so I do hope you will consider what I have already mentioned. 1. Rick Warren openly glorifies himself when tells everyone on just about every interview I’ve ever seen that he reverse tithes which is directly opposite of what our Savior, Jesus Christ said to do. 2. Rick Warren openly trains mormon pastors who bring another gospel and preach another Jesus (they believe Jesus and Satan are brothers and that Jesus was a man like us in another world and someday we will have a world to rule like Jesus does when we die if we are high level mormans, etc.) yet we are strictly forbidden to even bring someone who preaches another gospel into our homes. In fact they are supposed to be anathama (cursed). ( I am not suggesting not witnessing to the lost, I am saying don’t train them to preach another gospel!!) 3. We are told that the early missionaries went out and specifically did not team up with non-christians for the sake of keeping Jesus name pure and unsullied yet Rick Warren says that he will work with anyone, they don’t even need to be a christian. He also says they may be a muslim or an athiest, he says he sees no reason to seperate himself from anyone. This is a direct contradiction to the example I just listed as well as a direct disobedience to Jesus, who died for us, when we are told to be seperate and not to touch the unclean thing (false religion) and we are told what business does light have with darkness and Christ with belial (the devil, we are all children of the devil until we are reborn through the Holy Spirit into Gods family). 4. Rick Warren said this reformation will be about deeds not creeds. This is extremely insulting to the millions of Christians who have been martyred from the reformation to the present day. If it were not for the reformers who gave their very lives to step out from the Catholic church, we would not have bibles in our hands today. Thank God that they stood up to the false shepards of the Roman Catholic church who had the masses read in Latin and would not allow the people to read the bible for themselves (they said it was too much for the common man to understand!). Yet here is Rick Warren holding hands with the Catholic Church! Saying that he sees no reason to seperate himself from anyone. On her death bed, Mother Theresa asked that Mary be made co-redemtrix with Christ and apparently they are considering this! Rick Warren works with and hold hands with many false religious leaders. Jesus would never do this, he would tell them the truth (which he did and they killed him). 5. Rick Warren went to Synagogue 2000 or 3000 two years in a row to show the Jews how to increase their synagogue attendance. According to the scriptures, anyone who does not have the spirit of Christ is not of Christ, meaning if you do not come to the Father through Jesus Christ alone and recieve the Holy Spirit, you are not saved. Jews do not believe in Jesus. Rick Warren is trying to get synagogue attendance to increase???? He is helping them down the highway to Hell. This most recent trip the Jewish paper was reporting on the event and quoting him. They couldn’t believe that Rick Warren hadn’t tried to convert them at all! When they told Rick Warren this he told them (the Jews) that “We have enough Christian souls to worry about right now.”!!!!! NO CHRISTIAN WOULD SAY THIS EVER. You have been warned. Beware for yourselves. Paul tells us in Timothy that in latter times they will not listen to truth but will heap unto themselves teachers who will tickle their ears. RICK WARREN IS AN EAR TICKLER. He who has ears to hear let him hear.
May 7th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
A Friend is like many on the internet who is either woefully misinformed or chooses to share informaion that is blatantly false. The information that he shares regarding “Mormons being trained” comes from an article in USAToday about three years ago when a reporter wrote an article on Warren and inserted that line herself. The words were not in quotations. Later she admitted she did not understand that Mormons were not considered “Christians” by the Evangelical community and apologized. An official from Purpose Driven has stated that they have no record of any Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses registering to attend, much less attending a PDC conference.
As for Synogouge 3000, Rabbi Mark Halperin, a noted Rabbi who attented the event noted that “although Warren did not mention the name of Jesus Christ, there was no doubt that Rick was a Christian and he was representing Jesus Christ”.
But hey, why let truth get in the way of a good story.
May 7th, 2007 at 11:33 pm
John, thanks so much for clarifying the misinformation. What I don’t get, Friend, is why you choose to have such an extreme reaction to a man who, like it or not, publicly professes Christ and invites others to do the same. Whether you agree with the particulars of RW’s theology or his methodology or not, why not embrace Paul’s admonition to avoid such quarrels? “My brothers, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?” (1 Cor 1: 11-13)
May 8th, 2007 at 1:19 am
This is what the jewish paper said:
“The other secret to his success is his passion for God and Jesus. Warren managed to speak for the entire evening without once mentioning Jesus  a testament to his savvy message-tailoring. But make no mistake, the driving purpose of an evangelical church is to evangelize, and it is Warren’s devotion to spreading the words of the Christian Bible that drive his ministry.”
Notice they said he managed to speak the whole evening without once mentioning the name of Jesus Christ. Yet he had them fooled, as apparantly he has you fooled, that he is out to evangelize. Boy what an evangelist.
Also he said according to the Jewish Journal:
“Warren told Wolfson his interest is in helping all houses of worship, not in converting Jews. He said there are more than enough Christian souls to deal with for starters.”
Really sick and really pitiful that instead of being quick to defend Jesus dying on the cross for these lost jews, you defend Warren. It is very obvious who you love.
Also: “
May 8th, 2007 at 1:30 am
Also “In a recent USA article that is posted on Warren’s website it was reported “…Warren’s pastor-training programs welcome Catholics, Methodists, Mormons, Jews and ordained women. “I’m not going to get into a debate over the non-essentials. I won’t try to change other denominations. Why be divisive?†(“This evangelist has a ‘Purposeâ€Â, by Cathy Lynn Grossman, USA TODAY, 7/21/2003) (http://www.usatoday.com/life/2003-07-21-rick-warren_x.htm)”
Hmmm maybe it’s just me but it seems A LITTLE WIERD that Warren would post this article on his own website and not to dispute it.
Also, I notice you cannot dispute his self glorifying, tellling everyone publically how he reverse tithes. You will find it over and over and over again in many interviews which is why it cannot be disputed.
How sad that you don’t question a mere man. Jesus Christ came to earth and died for you. Don’t you think the Devil is going to be very tricky in the last days? Dont you think that it will be very, very, very hard to discern the truth of who is a true shepard and who is false? It says, even the very elect would be deceived if possible. That is really crafty deception. You owe it to yourselves to study the Word verse by verse and in context with much prayer. Then hold up everyone to see if they meet Gods standard and if they are preaching the Word in context.
Kay Warren is now partnered up with Angelina Jolie who is living with a man who is not her husband and has a child out of wedlock and claims to be bi-sexual. Does this make sense to anyone????? Aren’t pastors supposed to be held to a higher standard? Yet they hold hands with non-christians?
May 8th, 2007 at 10:01 am
A friend is right about Warren( I don’t know about the mormon thing). This bares repeating because it shows Warren’s compromise:
“Warren told Wolfson his interest is in helping all houses of worship, not in converting Jews. He said there are more than enough Christian souls to deal with for starters.”
Since Jews are not Christians, this means a professing Christian has publicly stated he will help unbelievers. He also demonstrated this by advising Jews at Synagogue 3000 on how grow their congregations. Now where in the bible do we see Christ or the apostles helping unbelievers expand their unbelieving communities?
Also Rick Warren publicly brags he is Rupert Murdoch’s pastor, which happens to have a massive porn business. Rick just says he doesn’t have to agree with everyone “100%” to work with them. Mr. Murdoch professes to be a Christian, but pornography is contrary to scripture.
Rick Warren brags about being Rupert Murdoch’s pastor
May 8th, 2007 at 11:51 am
Hey A Friend…….Thanks for repeating what I already said about Rick not saying “Jesus Christ” at Synaguoge 3000. But at least you left the part in where the Jewish paper made it clear that Warren was there to evangelize the words of the Christian Bible. Duh.
Again, if you note the article in the USAToday, the part mentioning “Mormons and Jews” is not in quotes and WAS ADDED by thw writer of the story who later admitted she did not realize they were not considered “Christians” and is was HER error. I have the backup for this in a book entitled Rick Warren and The Purpose That Drives Him by Richard Arbanes. Unfortunately I have just moves across the country and have not unpacked my library yet. It is dealt with in depth in the book.
As for the “reverse tithing”. Yes, Warren mentions it often and admits toi doing so. Not for vain glory but because he does not want the world to think that he is this for the money. Lord knows there have been enough eye-sores in Christianity in the last 50 years who have “been in it for the money”. I happen to be personal friends of the Warren family. I can tell you that Rick is pretty goofy in reality and is just a laid back small town guy without a lot of pretense. Because of his successes he has entered into a different stratosphere of influence and needs our prayers b ut heaven knows there will be no shortage of “spiritual giants” taking pot shots from their armchairs.
To answer Brandon on the Rupert Murdoch thing. Rick made a statement that he was “Murdoch’s pastor” because Murdoch told Rick he didn’t go to church anywhere. Rick said, “Well, I’ll be your pastor then”. They had developed a relationship because Murdoch owns Zondervan which published the Purpose Driven books. I do not believe that Murdoch is a professed believer and he is certainly not a member of Saddleback Church so I hardly see where “church discipline is appropriate.
Rick is contracted to Zondervan for x amount of books. If people like Brandon and the Anti-Warren internet empress Ingrid Schlueter who is the person behind this campaign were intellectually honest, they would go after all Christian authors to not write again for Zondervan once their current contracts cease. But that is not really their issue. It has always been about Warren. You cannot imagine the amount of yellow journalism that comes out of their boiler room. It is very sad indeed.
May 8th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
John, thanks again for clarifying the misinformation about Warren’s relationship with Murdoch.
Friend and Brandon, we can quibble about RW’s methods (or even disagree with them totally) but is it really necessary to judge the intents of his heart so harshly?
Regarding Kay Warren’s willingness to “hold hands” with Angelina Jolie … Didn’t Jesus permit a prostitute to wash his feet with her tears and her hair? Didn’t the religious leaders watching him scoff and rebuke his willingness to fraternize with “sinners”? Didn’t Jesus reserve his harshest condemnation for this very hypocrisy?
Who are you, really, to rebuke Kay for nurturing a relationship with Angelina Jolie — or for that matter any other person for whom Christ died? For all of her well-documented imperfections, Angelina has done more to raise awareness about justice and compassion overseas than entire denominations — never mind individual pastors and churches. Yes, she is flawed. No, I have never heard her suggest otherwise. Sounds like you and me and the self-proclaimed “worst of all sinners,” Paul the Apostle. Actually, she sounds even more like a Biblical beauty pageant winner who slept her way to the top only to find God redeemed her “for such a time as this” — and empowered her to use her access to kings to rescue an entire people from genocide.
May 8th, 2007 at 12:46 pm
John,
Just because someone says they are somewhere to evangelize does not mean they are there to evangelize. It’s called lying. Both statements cannot be true. It was the Jew who said that the Evangelical Church (not Rick Warren)wants to evangelize and that what is driving Rick Warrens ministry is spreading the words of the bible. First off, jews don’t read the bible (new testament) so how would they know that Rick Warren is correctly dividing the Word of Truth????? They wouldn’t, they don’t have the Holy Spirit to guide them. Second, anyone can quote or read scriptures and twist them to mean anything they want. The best decievers probably tell the truth 80-90% of the time, maybe even more. It’s those times they lie and you don’t realize it that can really mess you up. I don’t hear about sin and repentance and staying away from the world and being seperate. I hear about Hollywood nights at Saddle Back church and dressing up as your favorite movie star (can we imulate a more wordly crowd???) I see rock stars,politicians, talk show hosts, new age occultists, and many others who do not believe i Jesus Christ falling all over him. I see him promoting books by new agers, I see him promoting books by new agers who love demon channelers (literally) and promote them or quote them in their books. This is absolutely crazy and unbiblical. We are not supposed to partner with non-christians period. Witness to them, YES, partner with them NO.
Remember the quote from the Jewish Journal above
“Warren told Wolfson his interest is in helping all houses of worship, not in converting Jews. He said there are more than enough Christian souls to deal with for starters.â€Â
Rick Warren wants to help all houses of worship??????
Rick Warren is not interested in converting Jews????
Rick Warren thinks there are more than enough Christian souls to deal with for starters??????
And you think he is a christian because he said so??????
What makes someone a Christian?
( By the way, my brother, who is a pastor, has shared a platform with Rick Warren and thinks he’s great. When I read quotes by Warren to my brother without telling him who said them, he thought they were awful and that it was really scary. When I told him Warren said them, he immediately changed his tune and started defending Warren. What is it about a mere man that is making professing Christians fawn all over him and forget their loyalty to Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords??????)
May 8th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
John,
Just to be clear, evangelizing the words of the bible means to tell the gospel, Christ died and was buried and rose again the third day (according to the scriptures, meaning he is the prophesied Christ). When Rick Warren does not say that Jesus was the prophesied Christ, he is NOT evangelizing the words of the scriptures. The jews are still looking for the christ and will be very deceived when the anti-christ fulfills that role in their eyes. Rick Warren does NO good to these jews when he does not tell them their Christ has come and his name was Jesus. He had a marvelous opportunity to witness to thousands of jews and he DID NOT. Paul wouldn’t have missed this opportunity, nor would Stephen, James, John, Peter, etc. Rick Warren is NOT an evangelist, nor does he care for these mens souls. He proved it.
May 8th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
jenxcel,
Are you trying to refer to Ester? She did not sleep her way to the top. May be you are talking about someone else I am not familiar with?
If Kay Warren is trying to convert Angelina Jolie that is great. I’m all for it. What I am not for is partnering with non-christians because we are told not to in the bible. There is a difference.
Jesus ate with these sinners, prostitutes, etc. He did not partner with them, nor did He condone their sins. Rather He called for them to repent. Those who repented will be with Him in the first resurrection. Those who did not will say “Lord, Lord, but we ate with you and drank with you” and He will say “Depart from me, I never knew you.” Just because they knew Him, does not mean they accepted Jesus as their savior. Only those who accepted Him as their savior from sin, meaning they realized a blood sacrifice would be required on the day of judgement and they accepted Him as being their blood sacrifice, will be saved. Just knowing who He is or professing Christ does not save you. You must receive Him as your blood sacrifice. Those who understand will turn away from their sin. They may fall into sin occassionally but they will not practice sin. Example: They will not continue to live with someone they are not married to, fornicate, adultery, lie, practice homosexuality, etc. Only Jesus can deliver us from sin, not just the penalty of sin, but the actual practicing of sin. We definately cannot do it on our own. I know the vile sins I used to practice and have been delivered from and I also am repenting of new sins daily and being delivered and sanctified. If Kay Warren is trying to convert Angelina, that is beautiful. But she should not be partnering up with Angelina prior to her salvation, that is against the scripture.
May 8th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Friend, yes, I am referring to Esther. From Esther 2:13-17:
“And this is how she would go to the king: Anything she wanted was given her to take with her from the harem to the king’s palace. In the evening she would go there and in the morning return to another part of the harem …
Now the king was attracted to Esther more than to any of the other women, and she won his favor and approval more than any of the other virgins. So he set a royal crown on her head and made her queen …”
While Scripture is not crass, the inference is clear that Esther, a concubine and member of the king’s harem, was chosen queen based on an evening she spent pleasing the king more than the other concubines had. And yet, God saw fit to redeem Esther’s fornication — not to mention the circumstances that drove her to it — for his glory and a nation’s deliverance. That’s Gospel.
It’s the same kind of Gospel that prompted the King of kings to kneel in the dirt beside an adulteress and rebuke religious leaders for attempting to stone her. It’s the same kind of Gospel that invited a hotheaded fisherman into his inner circle, knowing full well that Peter’s rage would cause him to slice a man’s ear off in Gethsemane. It’s the same Gospel that heralded its arrival to shepherd and astrologers, rather than priests and levites. It’s the same Gospel that commended a reviled Samaritan at the expense of a self-righteous pastor and worship leader.
It’s the same Gospel that proclaims: “Where sin abounds, grace abounds much more.” (Romans 5:20).
May 8th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Yes Friend, anyone who can quote the Word and twist them. Think on that for awhile. Now, to deal with some of your latest claims:
Kay Warren attended a news conference in DC (I happened to be in a separate news conference in an adjoining room) that was sponsored by an organization started by a Methodist group three years ago. A. Jolie was also there. Both were endorsing the separate ministry.
Ahhh. But wait. On Ingrid Schluter’s website which has now changed addy’s, headlined this as “Warren Starting New Purpose Driven Ministry With Angeline Jolie”. Now, let’s look at the truth here. IS this a “Purpose Driven” ministry? No. PD is a registered named of 301 c ministry and as such no other group can use that name. This ministry is under the name and direction of “Global AIDS Alliance” which is made up of approximately 20 different volunteer organizations, some religious, some not. Is this a “new” ministry? No, it was started in 2003. You would like to think that these haters could get at least one of the facts wrong.
Of course these same people are now running with “Purpose Driven Porn” because Rupert Murdoch, owner of Fox news and a media empire as well as owner of Zondervan publishes pornography and because Warren has said he was “Murdoch’s pastor”. Have these people no shame?
Paul went to meet with the intellectuals of the day at Mars Hills and quoted from the pagans of the day and even from history when he wanted to challenge them. Warren did not do anything different in PDL. But then again you guys see a “new-ager” behind every flower.
May 8th, 2007 at 4:34 pm
Now the king was attracted to Esther more than to any of the other women, and she won his favor and approval more than any of the other VIRGINS. So he set a royal crown on her head and made her queen …â€Â
This is why I was not sure if you were referring to Esther.
Also you said “And yet, God saw fit to redeem Esther’s fornication  not to mention the circumstances that drove her to it  for his glory and a nation’s deliverance. That’s Gospel.”
She was already the kings queen when she went to him to have her people delivered. She did not sleep around in order to save her people. Esther did not learn of the plot against the jews until she was already queen (Esther 4).
May 8th, 2007 at 4:42 pm
John,
Actually I saw the story on MSN or AOL news a few days ago so I’m really not sure where you are getting your facts about my research.
My point was not about whether this ministry is new or not, you’re kind of missing the point. The point is Kay Warren is teaming up with a non-christian. We are forbidden to do so. Again, you choose to support the World and not Jesus Christ and His word.
My intentions here were to warn those of you who may be deceived by this false shepard. If you indeed belong to the Good Shepard, in time you will see the truth. Thank you for allowing me to post. Blessings to you and on you all.
May 8th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
So if I understand A Friend correctly then a Christian could never participate in an United Way campaign or a Girl Scout cookie drive or Pink Ribbon (Breast Cancer Awareness) campaign because no doubt not everyone involved would be a Christian and therefore we would be “unequally yoked”. Oh brother. Yes, let’s crucify a Christian sister because she has joined in a campaign as a spokesperson to help orphans of parents who died of AIDS and there are also non-Christians involved in this large organization. Insert roll of eyes here.
May 8th, 2007 at 10:46 pm
John,
What makes someone a Christian or what is a Christian?
May 8th, 2007 at 11:05 pm
A Friend,
I really don’t have the desire to play theological games with you. You can say that I don’t think it’s important. You can say I don’t know. You can say I don’t care. You can say whatever you want. But I have demonstrably shown where you are either woefully wrong or willfully deceitful. I have 14 years of very conservative Christian education behind me. I choose not to play your games. You have no credibility.
May 8th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
I really am not trying to play theological games with you. I am sincere. What makes someone a Christian?
May 8th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
The Bible says unless a man be “born again” he will not see the kingdom of God. And how can a man be “born again”? He has already been born once of flesh and blood. But he must be born again of the Spirit.
Rom 10:9-11
That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, “Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame.
And the fruits of Spirit are love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, meekness…..
There are a multitude of verses about salvation. I do not believe in a 123, pray after me easy believe ism but nor do I believe in a works related salvation either. God says call upon the name of the Lord and you will be saved. That was evidenced by the thief on the cross.
i am going to assume you are a calvinist. Many of the Warren-haters are. I lean towards reformed thought and Calvinism as well but I will not debate you on it. Such arguments are seldom beneficial, generate more heat than light and IMO contain more mystery than some are willing to admit. Suffice it to say I know Reformed Calvinists on staff at Saddleback who have no problem working there.
May 8th, 2007 at 11:56 pm
genxcel, i’m intrigued by the fact that you allow anonymous comments. when i allowed anonymous comments, I got discussion threads like these
May 9th, 2007 at 12:08 am
John,
Thank you for your sincere answer. And I agree with you concerning arguments reguarding Calvinism versus Armineanism. They are seldom beneficial. I also lean towards Calvinism and reformed thought. I believe in both free will and predestination and that they are reconciled in a way I just cannot understand until I see Jesus face to face. Thank you again for a sincere answer. Blessings to you and goodnight.
May 9th, 2007 at 12:17 am
Rudy,
I was not trying to be anonymous. I had to pick a name so I picked “A Friend”. Anyone can put up anyname. How do I know you are really a Rudy or that John is John etc. etc. I would say the same thing reguardless. Good night.
May 9th, 2007 at 4:12 am
A while back I looked into the larger companies that Ingrid’s own radio station is subject to. So, I know whenever Ingrid knocks Warren for publishing with Zondervan under Murdoch, she is being a hypocrite. It makes it real easy to see through her agenda. Check it out.